There's a girl at my church. Let's call her Harper. She wears the most shockingly inappropriate clothing. Short skirts? I mean, take your breath away short. Eye-poppingly short. Skirts that make me feel old and fussy. Low cut tops too. Don't get me wrong -- her clothes are not cheap. They're not daisy-dukes and halter tops, not ratty, not dirty, but they're the kind of cut and style that make the grannies cluck their tongues and shake their heads, especially when she sits at the communion rail.Harper is fourteen. She is the sweetest, most soft-spoken, polite, loving child. Every Sunday she's upstairs helping out in the pre-K Sunday School class, crawling around on the floor picking up blocks and playdoh crumbs, and doling out lemonade and graham crackers. Then she goes and sits with her family in church, sings the hymns, says the prayers. Afterwards she helps out with the coffee hour, serving snacks, ladling punch, wiping up tables. On one occasion I remember her coming in with two plates of pigs in a blanket she had made at home, which she nervously heated in the microwave and served anxiously -- they were gone in minutes and she was flushed and pleased.
Are her skirts too short for church? Yes. I have seen her many times sitting on the floor with the toddlers, and found myself thinking she was about a centimeter away from total embarrassment. But I would rather cut out my tongue than tell her she's out of line in any way. She's a teenager who's cheerfully, actively involved in church. In my opinion, if she wants to come in a swimming suit, I'm fine with that. Her parents are lovely people. Active volunteers, happy, smart, very normal-looking. I don't know what their feelings are about their daughter's skirts. I would guess they're happy to have her sitting next to them in the pew. I know I would be. She's one of my favorite parishioners.
Last week, the Carnival of Homeschooling was hosted by a blog called A Pondering Heart (not for children -- there are violent images on the front page, as of April 12 anyway). The author of the blog is another young girl, Jocelyn, who is also active in her church. Jocelyn is very concerned with modesty. She is the founder of Feelin' Feminine, a group blog about modesty and against pants (again be warned, the image on the front page of this blog is ironically not child-safe). She has also written a modesty checklist, which she instructs other girls to print out and hang by their mirrors. She even made the graphics for the Carnival of Modesty! She is, like, totally modest. Jocelyn believes that she is called to admonish her sisters in Christ, and that what others might see as judgmental she feels is necessary.
Hosting a carnival is kind of like throwing open the doors of your blog and asking people to come in and look around. Clicking around in A Pondering Heart, my first reaction was that Jocelyn was just another obsessed teenager, and that it was kind of cute. Some girls are obsessed with Twilight. Some throw themselves into horses. This is a child who has let her passions run wild in the direction of religion, specifically modesty and what she perceives as chaste behavior. One has only to read her post about purging herself of all her Lord of the Rings paraphernalia to recognize the signs of the obsessed teenaged girl. So, as long as her parents don't take her too seriously, and she doesn't make any decisions she can't take back when she grows up, where's the harm? Yeah, it's all a little crazy (Example: A woman with short hair is a cross-dresser!) When I was her age, I wanted to be a professional horse trainer. I *really* believed in it too. Teenaged girls take things to extreme. More to be pitied than censured. She'll grow out of it, etc.
However, I started thinking about my friend Harper from church, and about all the earnest, sweet-tempered energy she brings with her on Sunday morning, along with her questionable hemline and sleeveless dresses. How ridiculous it would be to tell her she's "encouraging lust" or to tell her that her actions are not "pleasing to God" because of the cut of her skirt. That made me think that Jocelyn's message is not so innocuous. I certainly wouldn't want her preaching to Harper, making her feel like she wasn't welcome in her Father's house. A few verses for Jocelyn and the modesty carnival:
Matthew 7:20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit.
Luke 6:44 For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush.
James 3:12 Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.
What do you think? Does Jocelyn have a good point? After all, we've all complained about the slutwear available in stores for elementary age children. Or, is this modesty movement sending a dangerous message to our children, placing such significance on all these external signifiers to express piety? The people who argue that women in African tribes go topless because they are "heathen" are preaching the same doctrine as the devout Muslims who believe that women must be covered up -- does that make the Muslims less heathen then?In my opinion, your actions are what matters. Your appearance means nothing. If you believe in a God that made the world and is older than eternity, who has seen every age, every culture, every way that humans have clothed themselves since the monkeys came down out of the trees, do you really think He's measuring skirts, here in 2009, and judging some people unworthy based on a matter of a number of inches above or below the knee? It's silly.
Beyond that, it's a way to tear people down, another way to set an invisible bar so high that no one can ever be good enough. Jocelyn herself, self-appointed admonisher of her sisterhood, is constantly agonizing over whether she's modest enough, whether she's pure enough, if it's okay to wear this much makeup or is only that much okay, if a shirt should be this tight or that loose... etc. Unlike other teenage obsessions like writing comics or dancing ballet or stalking Robert Pattinson, this one makes little girls afraid for their immortal souls. You can never be absolutely modest, because modesty is so undefined. So you are always reaching, and always falling short. And that is actually not silly but wrong.
Labels: homeschooling, modest swimwear, modesty, religion
Your article actually is food for thought rather than that I feel like giving a complete immediate response.
My incomplete immediate response is:
I intuitively feel you are focusing on where it matters: unconditional love is God's love. it seems that you are far on this way....
EXACTLY. I know the child you're talking about and she's one whom parents everywhere could only pray their own daughters resemble in a small way. I applaud her parents' ability to give her personality the space it needs...including room to wear goofy clothes. I think that for her, clothes are a way of continuing to play Barbies...and now she's the doll. She's tall, starting to grow up, but still a little girl having fun, trying one extreme outfit after another.
On the other hand, if I had a boy-crazy, mega-pubescent, much-developed daughter consciously using such clothes to attract male attention, I'd have to slow her down. Stuff like that, worn as a mating call, could get her in trouble with life-long consequences.
The girl in your blog is not at that stage. She's a model-thin sweety whose clothes in no way reflect her intent to do anything but play on the bleeding edge of fashion as seen on MTV. I'd say she's channeling Lauren from "The Hills."
Lydia - (by the way, love the name! You share it with my daughter - newly adopted).
What a great, great post. We ALL need to spend more time working out our OWN faith with fear and trembling rather than worrying about someone else's. We all fall short and no amount of rule-meeting will change that.
By the way - I think you must live in my hometown area. I grew up in Virginia Beach and often went to Norfolk. One of my favorite spots (and where I was married after interning there) was the d'Art Center. It may be long gone by now (that was nearly 17 years ago).
I've added your blog to my google reader (and will add it to my blogroll, too)!
Hi Lydia,
Happy to reconnect here! I enjoyed reading this post. As a mom of teen girls, I always wonder and pray for all teens.
It isn't easy being a teen as they are quite overexposed in so many ways and yet most, like Harper, are quite wonderful.
I've often tried to imagine the world of homeschooling and the real deal behind the scenes. lol! Thanks for sharing your world and for visiting mine.
Cheers!
Hi Kerry! Welcome to the blog. The d'Art Center is no longer in its own freestanding building -- the artists have moved further downtown into the Selden Arcade (on Plum Street). The place where the d'Art center used to be is now a gigantic grocery store with condos above it -- that takes up the whole city block.
Thanks for adding me to your reading list! :)
I think we are very similar in this respect; on the one hand the description of the scantily-clad girl makes me wince just a little, but given her obvious goodness/devotion it doesn't seem to be harming her in any way, so I'm willing to accept that maybe I'm making a mountain out of a molehill; as for the "cult of modesty," it makes me cringe. It places an emphasis on on submission and responsibility for the actions/thoughts of others that I feel is genuinely dangerous. (Not to be too shocking about it, but: I feel very strongly that that sort of thinking leads to things like blaming the rape victim, because she wasn't dressed "appropriately," etc.)
At its core, I think it becomes a matter of moderation. I'm all for dressing modestly, sure. But when it becomes your mission and your own personal cult, you've departed from the realm of reason and it becomes the focus instead of an incidental, and that can only detract from what's supposed to be the goal (developing your relationship with God).
But I have a really hard time believing pants to be inherently salacious, and gardening in a skirt would drive me insane. So admittedly I'm coming at this issue from a decided bias, too. ;)
Don't we see versions of the same thing in the "adult" world? Judgement of another person's eternal soul based on their family size, their denomination, if the Mom is home or working outside the home, ethnicity, who their marriage partner is?
Some of the most most hate-filled speech and judgement has come from my modest, Bible-centered friends.
Lydia,
Another homeschooling mother I know fusses about young girls clothing, the fact that she has a difficult time finding longer skirts and shorter necklines and sleeves for her beautiful daughters to wear. It is very difficult in a department store to find tasteful clothing for young ladies with modest skirt & necklines.
Colleen Hammond wrote a book called Dressing with Dignity, she is Catholic and she made some interesting points in her book concerning how a woman dresses and scripture her main view point comes from Matthew 18:6, if you cause one to sin...and then goes on to state that we are responsible not only for our actions and dress as women, as not to become a stumbling stone for others by sinning with the manner of our dress. The example she gives is much like the one you do, with the young lady from your church, for young men to see a young lady at the communion with lots of flesh to look at will unknowningly create temptation of the flesh.
I have some acquanitances who have daughters are only allowed to skirts, there is no care in dressing them so they generally look like their clothes have pulled from the donation pile at the Goodwill. I think there is a fine balance between dressing with modesty and going so over board your daughters look like girls from those LDS compounds.
Our pastor's wife when they started in ministry said one of the things she had to overcome was her seductive clothing she used to wear. She wears lovely clothes, tasteful and modest, you would never know this was something she struggled with as a Christian. Our church has small stacks of light throw blankets for ladies who wish to, cover their legs while sitting in service because their skirts while modest enough when standing rise up when sitting. This is not something that is announced however when you see a few sisters cover their legs, and you wish to do the same you just grab a throw.
I think there is a great deal to discuss about dressing with a degree of modesty. Most of us do really put a great deal of thought into it, unless you have decided to wear skirts only and avoid jeans and slacks. I would recommend Colleen Hammond's book, as she is not zealous in her manner but gives well thought out discussion and reason using scripture and teachings to share with others how to dress with dignity.
The young lady's blog your refer to seems to be a little over zealous in her religious ideas. You can be a Jesus Freak and not condemn others, we are not to judge but to share His Truth. Free Will dictates someone's willingness to hear, know and believe. It is not something that can forced by harsh words and critical manner.
Just my 2 cents
Dawn
Hmm, well, I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel like an old bitty while I was walking through the mall judging every girl who walked passed me with shorts up her butt crack, her boobs falling out of her shirt or a similarly cut dress where a moderate passing of gas would reveal all that is barely hidden. I would also be lying if I said that I did not once dress this way during a younger age, or the BK (before kids). While I have read and played with the idea of modesty from a religious standpoint, I believe that my mom mind has a far powerful opinion about modesty, predicting what I would and would not let my little girl wear in the future.
This is one of those subjects where I can see both sides, argue both sides, and then wind up in the middle feeling like my thoughts are all jumbled and don't make any sense. So if this sounds like that, sorry, that's how it sounds to me too =) Fragmented thoughts.
I think (at least for now) that the way you dress isn't so much the length of your hemline or bustline, but more about the reason you do it. When you dress yourself, if your intent is to make the boys' hearts race and to persuade them to lust after you, then it is definitely an immodest way to dress and your intentions are not Godly. Haha, I do this purposefully for my hubby at times, so does it make me unGodly to want my husband to have that same feeling? So does this apply only to unmarried women?
I think it just depends on how the way you dress makes you feel. (Again, unmarried women? or women who are going for someone other than their husband?) If you feel like a vixen and are off to find a prey then it probably falls on the immodest side.
In the case of this young lady, she seems very Godly and helpful, the daughter that everyone would want, so I could hardly judge her for dressing poorly because her actions scream out for the better.
On the other hand, if you come to church wearing clothes so tiny it would make the father (or pastor, preacher, etc) blush it's probably not appropriate. Especially at church, I would think making people uncomfortable is not the goal.
See, all jumbled...I can't make any sense of it! =)
I guess my final answer is, no, of course, you can not judge someone based solely on how they dress.
Ok, my head hurts...I am going to move on =)
So, Jocelyn sounds way off the charts and probably has some obsession issues to address. I hate for her to torment herself with an ideal no one can ever reach. I imagine posing these stringent standards gives her some sort of control in a world that feels very unstructured. I hope other teens are not heeding her too seriously, because as you said, that can be damaging.
However, just because Jocelyn is way too radical doesn't mean Harper's skimpy dress should be any more acceptable to us. I, too, would rather have an eager teenager show up to church in a swimsuit than not at all. But I want them to show up so they can (hopefully) be exposed to positive messages and role models. How is Harper ever supposed to know that her skirts are too short if no one ever bothers to say anything to her? In a few years when she goes to a job interview and is rejected, will someone say something to help her out then?
There is a youth leader in our church that is very direct with the young girls, gently reminding them to "Mind your 3 B's"-- that's belly, boobs, and butt. She requires that at all youth functions the kids have their B's adequately covered. I don't think this is a harsh mandate, but actually teaches a certain amount of respect. It's an important fact of life to learn that you should not dress at church, or school, or the office the way you would at a frat party.
I agree that God probably has little or no interest at all in how we are dressed, and it certainly does not effect his love for an individual. But I absolutely do think that short hemlines and low tops encourage lust in young boys that see Harper, and will probably lead to her having to face sexual issues earlier than she may be ready for. Modesty is a good lesson when not taken to the extreme. We don't want kids to grow up hiding and being ashamed of their bodies. But at the same time we want them to respect themselves enough to realize that they are special and don't need to show themselves to everyone to get attention. Alas, balance seems to be such a terribly hard thing to achieve.
You've written quite a thought provoking piece! I agree that it is the actions that speak louder than words, but I can understand how hard it might be for some to get past the physical appearance. I put a lot of blame on the fashion world though. It's hard for kids to dress modestly when the stores sell nothing but low rise jeans and micro-mini skirts. Especially when you're a sewing impaired mom. :o)
One problem I see is that most time, we have nothing but that first physical impression to go on. There, I said it. We have a culture that is highly visual and places great importance on looks and flaunting those looks. In a way, I think discussion boards and online communities are a good solution to this. How often do you get exposed to someone's personality before you've had a chance to form opinions based on their looks? When I was a kid, you could only do that if you had a pen pal.
BTW, Thanks for the warning about the pictures. I didn't have anything in the carnival this week, so I didn't know.
Peace,
Cristina
Ya know... you are talking about my sister and you have no idea what you are talking about! This is whole article or "attack", if you will, has SO many fallacies not only about Jocelyn but about God and what He requires of us, it is unbelievable!
You obviously did not read Jocelyn's blog or else you wouldn't have said some of the things you did because they are not true.
I could give you a couple of verses... but I won't.
It is wrong to gossip about people, especially those you don't know and this "attack" has not gone unnoticed!
Also... your comment "Teenaged girls take things to extreme."Maybe true, but the only thing Jocelyn is taking to the extreme is the Scriptures and her love for The Savior and she is sharing it with everyone so that they can be extreme in their belief of Yeshua. We ARE called to be extreme to Him.
And... your blog isn't for younger viewers either with the picture you have on this very post. I had to tell my brother to go away from me because your blog is risque and immodest.
Miss Amanda (Jocelyn's older sister)
The Daily Planet
I think that you have made some very unfair comments about Miss Jocelyn. I am aquainted with their family, and I must say that your description of this lovely young lady and her desire to please our Heavenly Father is completely unreasonable. The fact is that we are all called to modesty of dress and mind, and it is completely appropriate for her to speak out about it. (As iron sharpens iron...) I would suggest doing some research about how the way a girl/woman dresses can be a great stumbling block to boys/men who are so visually-oriented. And yes, I know that it is up to them to call their own thoughts captive, but we do have a responsibility to our other brothers and sisters in the Lord. I for one commend Jocelyn for understanding this and committing to pleasing the Lord in this way at such a young age. Taking a counter-culture stand in the world we live in today is not easy!
Tragic, so many people pick and choose their favorite scriptures to abide by.
Please read the Bible closely, pray to the Lord, and ask Him for guidance. A homosexual will say "Nobody's perfect, God loves us all" but truly, God asks us to repent from our wicked ways. If we truly love the Lord, we will strive to please him and obey all of his commandments. Wearing short skirts obviously captured YOUR attention and you are a female, imagine what that image does to males. As older women, we are obligated to train up the younger ladies and teach them to dress modestly :)
1 Timothy 2:9-10... “In like manner also that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls or costly array, but (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works”
“But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery WITH her already in his heart.“ (Matthew 5:28) and also in Mark 9:42 it says... “But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to stumble (to cause to sin), it would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea.“
Titus 2:3-5 tells us of what the aged women are to teach the younger women. Verse 5 again touches on modesty. “To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
“And when thou art spoiled (not a good thing), what wilt thou do? Though thou clothest thyself with crimson, though thou deckest thee with ornaments of gold, though thou rentest thy face with painting, in vain shalt thy make thyself fair.” Jeremiah 4:30
Please do not post an entry criticizing a fellow Christian, the tone is hateful and I see no good coming from it. I respect Jocelyn, she is a fabulous example to her fellow peers, and I hope my daughters will have the same desire to obey God instead of falling prey to trendy short skirts and low-cut shirts :|
Jocelyn is a lovely example of a christian girl. you have no right to judge. Let God be the judge.
The way you dress says something about *you*. Dressing sexually for church is beyond me, it is a place to worship God and put our attention on HIM....not how great your body may be. And guys should be able to go to church knowing there they can escape seeing girls half-naked...not encounter it there too.
I do not know Jocelyn personally but enjoy her blog. She is a young lady who isn't afraid to stand up for what is right. Attacking her isn't going to help justifying this girl "Harper's" dress issues.
I don't agree with every single thing Jocelyn says about Modesty but what she is trying to convey is important. Respect your body beacuse ultimately it is God's.
This is a very, VERY disappointing post. Jocelyn is a wonderful girl who is seeking (not obsessing) to be pure and modest in a world that is anything but. Yes, she calls other girls to keep a high standard for themselves, and you know what? It's about time someone did. God calls us to be modest...Jocelyn is simply trying to make sure that as many girls as possible get that message. She obviously has a heart that seeks to serve the Lord, and that is a blessing! I don't think Jocelyn would EVER tell your young friend Harper that she shouldn't be in church....but she may suggest to her that she wear more appropriate clothing when she is there. As Christians we are called to do more than just turn from sin...we're supposed to encourage others to follow the same path!
I would encourage you to retract this post or at least post an apology to Jocelyn...this was an unnecessary attack on her character. Your point really could have been made without mentioning her specifically. I hope that you don't view my comment as mean or rude, because it's not intended to be. I'm simply....sad. Sad that a good, modest, chaste, pure young girl has had her name dragged through the mud from doing nothing wrong at all.
What does a post like this one tell those who read it who are not believers? Christians trashing other Christians isn't going to get us anywhere. Encouragement and resources are what Jocelyn provides...it's unfortunate that this post provides otherwise.
Jocelyn, if you read this...you are a treasure and are impacting the lives of young women every day. Do not be discouraged! Blessings to you.
May I add or correct something you said. Joceyln does not attend a church, she and her family church at home with only themselves.
Hi all! :)
It's so interesting to get a wide variety of opinions -- thank you for that.
Paige, I like the 3 B's idea! Very reasonable. :)
Cristina, I hadn't thought about that aspect of digital interaction -- interesting side to the discussion.
SuperAngel, I have nothing against Jocelyn. It's sweet of you to defend your sister, but she's not under fire here, unless linking to her blog is offensive to you.
Martha, On the one hand, "as iron sharpens iron" and on the other hand "please to not post an entry criticizing a fellow Christian." Which is it? :) Are we only allowed to criticize fellow Christians for what they're wearing?
jenny, Let God be the judge, absolutely. I think you have gotten the point of my post.
I know Jocelyn's mother, and she has beautiful, Godly children and to judge Jocelyn is not for you to do. You don't have to agree, believe nor support someone elses views, but you do have to respect and applaud someone who has their own views, not led by the materialistic greed of this world. Stand in line and be judged not by one another but by God himself.
Oh my hail and brimstone (and fire too!)! What I'm wondering is does anybody care about the boys? I have pulled my brother's pants right down (he was 20 soemthing at the time which would have made me late 20 something or early 30 something). Boys seem to think it's great to wear their pants halfway down their bums.
And I don't believe that I've seen *anything* risque on this blog! Good golly! I thought that this was a very well thought out and thought provoking blog post. I didn't feel that she was being judgmental or harsh of anyone's blog.
Over the years, I've found that many of the most judgmental and least christian people I've ever met are those who proclaim themselves to be totally devout and true to the every word of God. I can't tell you how often I've been told that I'm going to hell simply because I believe it's okay to be gay. Or because I believe that many religions have very similar stories in their holy books. Or because I believe that I don't have to go to church to be a good person.
Hmm. I seem to have gotten off track.
I feel that God has a lot of much bigger issues to care about than state of dress.
I am in my 40s and have to say that on first reading your entry - I was concerned that no-one has even spoken to this young girl (in a loving way may I add) regarding her dress. I am also surprised that her mum has not even intervened and said something.
We have young girls working on Saturdays at our local Christian bookstore. One young lady inparticular is around 15 - 16 years of age and was wearing tops that were totally unsuitable let alone revealing. I felt led to say something to her. The Manager, who is a male was thankful that I had spoken to her as he had noticed the inappropriateness of her dress but did not feel right about speaking to her. Along with me the Deputy Manageress had also picked up on this too and also took her aside.
This young girl (along with so many others) may well be very good "believers in the Lord" but if we dress inappropriately then this can give off the wrong signals and can cause the opossite sex to "lust" unintentionally.
If we notice that a sister or brother is dressing in a manor that is inappropriate then surely we should take this person aside or if we feel we can't do that then speak to a pastor's wife etc to ask them to say something.
I alone in my last church, have on three occasions said words on the inappropriateness of someone's dress (or lack of dress) code.
Let me ask you something, if this young girl is sitting in a room full of people and her dress is as short as you say it is, and she is sitting opposite others, would you want others (especially guys) to see what she is wearing underneath - as what is likely to happen. Again, in a fellowship meeting session, I was appalled to see a young girl in her twenties wearing a short skirt which just barely covered her butt - that when she sat down it left little to the imagination - what kind of example does this set and what thoughts does this set off to guys. Yes I mentioned this to the pastor's wife at the time - a pastor's wife whom has done teaching sessions on modest dress.
Secondly, on Joclyn's last entry having "violent images" - these images I believe were taken from the film "the passion" - these so called violent images were of the cruxifiction of Christ. These images showed what Christ went through for us and what He had to go through for us. What is so wrong in portraying what Jesus actually went through, the pain, the suffering so that we could all see that He alone did this for us - what on earth is so wrong with this.........The film, The Passion alone is full of images like the ones that Jocelyn has portrayed and this you could say is a very violent film but in a good way. Again, I reiterate, a film that shows without a shadow of a doubt what Jesus had to go through. Believe you me this film is less violent that a lot of films that are shown on our television screens these days.
So may I strongly suggest that before you start judging others (which is what you are doing in this post and may I add that we have no right whatsoever to do - the only person who has the authority and right to judge is Jesus Himself). Go back to the Word of God my friend and start studying The Bible again including such topics as Modesty.
This post is said in love by the way so please do not take it any other way................
In Him
Page
Hi again! :) More responses...
In general, I am looking for where I have "judged" Jocelyn. I'm using examples from her own words and links to her blog to represent her ideas. I'm disagreeing with those ideas. Where is the judgment? I seriously, genuinely want to know.
Kristen, you say "you do have to respect and applaud someone who has their own views." Do you respect and applaud everyone who has their own views?
kristen, I'm sure my commenters today would have a few choice words to say about gay people! Of course, then they would also repeatedly tell you that it was only for God to judge. :)
Page, What this girl wears is her parents' business, not mine. Now, if she starts a blog and begins posting images of herself in her outfits, proclaiming how great and wonderful it is to wear these outfits to church, I might disagree with the ideas on that blog, and say so. And I do believe that The Passion is inappropriate for children.
I just had to deal with the topic of immodest dress yesterday at church. Since I wasn't sure what to say or how to say something lovingly I decided to wait and pray about what to say when this occurs again. I am coming from this as a mom with an 18-year-old son, an 8-year-old son, and an 11-year-old daughter. I don't appreciate when teen girls lean forward to expose their zebra-printed underwear; I don't appreciate when maturing young ladies wear tank tops with bra straps hanging out hug my 8-year-old, as they're not realizing he's not a "little boy" any longer. And it is getting more difficult to find modest clothing for my daughter. Goodwill is really a great way to shop for older, modest clothing!
I think that some day Harper will be mortified and saddened that no one ever said anything to her about her immodesty. Here she is trying to serve others and glorify God and doesn't realize how distracting and disrespectful she's being. I know that I wish someone had talked to me.
Blessings,
Danielle
I just had to respond to something that Danielle posted (above). Years ago, I was Harper. I was the young girl with good intentions but no clue about how my immodest clothing affected other people. Looking back on my teenage years, I wish someone had told me how inappropriate that was. It's an amazing change when people start looking at you as an intelligent, capable woman instead of a piece of meat.
The beauty of a modestly dressed woman is seriously underestimated.
By the way- I still wear pants. ;)
Wow.
Why do you protect the identity of ONE teen, and not the other.
Why is one teen allowed to be anonymous, while the other teen is ripped to shreds.
You say about the unnamed teen "But I would rather cut out my tongue than tell her she's out of line in any way."
Why do you not want to cut out your tongue after writing what you did about Jocelyn?
Have you thought for ONE MOMENT what your nasty comments might do to Jocelyn, the teen you named, ridiculed, hyperlinked, slammed some more, hyperlinked, slammed, hyperlinked, slammed and spat at with angry words, inciting others to join in?
Lydia - you are an adult, quite obviously, and able to dish it out to one TEENAGER that you have obviously NEVER met, but afraid to say a peep to the one in church.
Wow.
Utterly amazing.
And you talk about fruit. Your fruit is VERY obvious in this post.
Oh, I meant to mention The Modesty Survey done by the Harris brothers. I thought it was very well done and there are some great articles, also. Check it out!
http://www.therebelution.com/blog/
Where is the judgment? I seriously, genuinely want to know.
Here goes - "This is a child who has let her passions run wild in the direction of religion, specifically modesty and what she perceives as chaste behavior. One has only to read her post about purging herself of all her Lord of the Rings paraphernalia to recognize the signs of the obsessed teenaged girl. So, as long as her parents don't take her too seriously, and she doesn't make any decisions she can't take back when she grows up, where's the harm? Yeah, it's all a little crazy (Example: A woman with short hair is a cross-dresser!) When I was her age, I wanted to be a professional horse trainer. I *really* believed in it too. Teenaged girls take things to extreme. More to be pitied than censured. She'll grow out of it, etc."
Well, you asked me to drop by! LOL Wow, Lydia, when you want to create some controversy, you go all the way. Kudos for such a thought-provoking post.
However, ya, in my opinion you did judge this girl Jocelyn - judging is not just calling someone on the carpet by saying they're wrong - judgment in this case is presuming to know the heart, mind and motivation of another human being...and that is to be dealt with and known only to God and the person involved. We really have no way of knowing that this girl is simply going through a phase to be grown out of.
Harper sounds like a sweet girl. I understand how uncomfortable it is to talk to a teenage girl about the way they dress, but I can only hope that one day soon an adult Christian woman whom she respects will come alongside her and help her make better wardrobe choices, LOL. That's not judgment...it's mentoring. Teenagers don't respond well to "you're wrong! turn or burn!" tactics from people they don't know. You can say the same thing, however, after you've built a relationship, gained their respect, and they know that you genuinely care about them.
FWIW, when I led a worship team of high school girls, I was strict about dress code. Skirts and dresses were knee-length and below. No jeans, but dressy pants were fine. Nothing revealing on top. If they showed up in something inappropriate, they didn't sing. Not one ever did - so trust me, teenage girls know what's appropriate dress and what's not for pretty much any given situation.
That said, you are right that God really doesn't give a rip about what we wear - His concern is the condition of our hearts.
Isn't it funny that you can find scripture verses to support both sides, though? Heck - you can use scripture to justify just about anything! LOL
Hi, if the way this girl dresses is none of my business then what you have said about Jocelyn and her blog posts is also may I add nothing to do with yourself and again this is said in a very kind but true way. You are judging Jocelyn and this post is totally inappropriate......
Also, in regards to The Passion, I wonder how many children were around when Jesus was crucified? I am sorry but I disagree this is one film that shows very clearly what Jesus did for us loud and clear. I also know that there are often sketches held in churches which can come across as violent in their message but in a good way.........a strong message for all including children.
Anways, I along with others also believe you should remove your post due to the judging that you have portrayed especially towards a young girl whom you know nothing about. A young girl who is very godly in so many ways. This young girl and her entire family are so switched on with The Word you have no idea. No this family is not perfect just like all of us..
This family study the Word of God big time and are zealous for Him you have no idea. The whole family are zealous for The Lord - they are a very loving family who bless others in so many ways you have no idea. They live how The Word tells us to live - which is how each of us should be living.....
I have read a lot of the replies to your post and I have to say that as you will see - Jocelyn is very well loved as is the whole of her family.................
Blessings in Him
Page
I also think you should check this post out entitled A Modesty Medlar http://heartchoicestoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/modesty-meddler.html
You seriously need to read this.
Blessings
Page
What about looking at this from a practical, nonreligious point of view?
This obviously wonderful girl, no matter how you look at it, is sending a message to the world - even if she doesn't intend to. And that message doesn't match who she is.
The fact that other people will interpret her as "slutty" IS due to the way she dresses. It's not their fault for judging - it's a normal human reaction in this day and age when children are at such risk. And the fact that grown men will ogle her - that's downright dangerous and irresponsible.
The over-sexualizing of young children is a plague upon the land. It causes problems too numerous to mention. Then there is just the lesson that ladies don't dress inappropriately, especially for church. Learning appropriateness, with a liberal dash of liberalness, is another important lesson.
THe super-modest whack jobs mentioned in your post don't get it, either. Attracting attention for being weird is just weird.
As for my family, we let our daughter, when she was a young teen and teenager, dress fashionably but with a few basics: no abdomen exposure unless sitting by a pool; no bra straps showing no matter how little, and absolute no view of cleavage, even when bending over. And no tattoos or excessive piercings. She is now 21, dresses like Audrey Hepburn, and is very thankful we raised her that way.
Ok, hi again! =)
I agree with Lydia, Passion is not a child appropriate movie. As the mom of a 5 yr old and a 3 yr old, I would not show them those images. My 5 yr old especially would be terrified at the sight. She know what Jesus has done for us and I have explained every detail in a way I feel she could understand, but just because the movie portrays exactly what Jesus has done for us does not mean I am going to subject my children to it and deal with the nightmares of it later.
I think you should leave this post up! While I understand people are being defensive here, (as I mentioned to you before Lydia), I also think you have given this girl Jocelyn's blog a lot of hits. With most of us being mothers (just a guess) and some form of christians (another guess) we would all welcome suggestions and scripture regarding modesty for ourselves and our children. So while some people perceive this post as being an attack...there is a flower among those thorns...you are actually promoting this young lady's blog and I am sure that all who follow the links will receive some form of fruits from her labor of love. I am thankful to have been guided in this direction. =)
I also wanted to comment on some of the new words about Harper. Just some food for thought. I always find it very helpful to be "in the minds" of kids at differing ages. Young girls (and boys) do not actually have the mental capacity or maturity to realize that there actions are causing reactions other than what they have intended. This young lady is dressing in a way that she feels looks good on her and does not project how other people perceive her. She, I am sure, truly believes it does not make anyone feel ill towards her. "Children" in their teen years (13 to 17 or 18-and still into adulthood sometimes) do not have the psychological development to process these situations. If an 18 year old boy asks a 13 year old girl to come up to his room to look at his posters, she will truly believe that he is asking her up for just that. It will never occur to her that this boy has an alternative motive.
My husband is a pediatrician and they had a seminar recently on the emotional and mental development of teenagers. This is something that comes with age and experience. Psycholgical and abstract thinking comes very late it in life. Developmental maturing is there for teens the same as it is there for toddlers. I would suggest, if anything, someone bringing this up to the parents and have them explain things to her. It is no one else's business but theirs.
Okay, but still... the judgement is...? Saying "Where's the harm?" is really ripping her to shreds?
I don't think Jocelyn is bad or dangerous or terrible -- I think if anything she's a victim of an unhealthy obsession based on an extreme doctrine. That level of obsession with body image and sexuality, especially when nervously linked with your salvation, is not healthy. Is it her fault? No. Who is teaching this person to be so worried about her body?
Anonymous @3:30 pm :) The difference between the two teens is that one has created several blogs promoting an very well-articulated agenda. Jocelyn is 17 years old, she has a very strong presence on the internet, she has set herself up as an authority on the subject, and I think she's old enough to tolerate someone disagreeing with her ideas. She hasn't been shredded, slammed, or spat at. I'm not afraid to my friend at church -- I said I don't want to.
Kim, yeah, not only can you find scripture to support both sides, you can find logic to support both sides -- leading of course to the inevitable "everything in moderation" conclusion. It's not about me saying what Harper wears to church is awesome. It's about me saying, it's not my place to tell her what to wear.
Page, if Harper had created a fashion blog promoting low cut shirts and miniskirts as Sunday morning style, you would have every right to write about it, and ask your blog readers what they think about it. When Jocelyn puts herself out there on the internet, it's inevitable that not everyone will agree with her. You know, if her blog was just a personal diary, I might not have used it as an example. However, she has put herself in the position of laying down the law (or checklist) for other girls.
Jill K, you are such a total cross-dresser with that short hair. I hope you didn't go to church like that! ;D I get what you're saying about Grace -- I wouldn't let my Grace flash anybody either. But the whole modesty movement gives me the creeps -- all the focus on sexuality and lust -- it's so almost like... Afghanistan.
Lydia, I disagree with what others have posted - I do not feel you should take down your post. If this young girl is going to post a public blog and take a stand, then she does so accepting that others will disagree with her and she will be called to defend her position and even her faith. That's a true homeschooling life lesson if ever I saw one.
I once saw a comedian who talked about being in a nightclub where a young woman was dressed in a mini-skirt and low cut blouse. He started hitting on her and she became indignant. She said, "Just because I dress this way doesn't mean I'm easy. Why do you think that?" He said, "You know, if I see a man in a cop uniform, I'm gonna' assume he's a cop. If I see a man in a fireman's uniform, I'm going to assume he's a fireman. I assumed this was YOUR uniform so I just went with the logical assumption."
Personally, I think this is an issue that the pastor should address. Perhaps he is unaware of how "Harper's" dress is taken or the disapproval it is causing in the congregation.
As a parent of a girl and three boys, I know what my eldest son would say about "Harper's" outfit. I would be offended that my sons were exposed to that kind of provocative dress. And outraged if the blame were put on my son for noticing the "advertisement."
I'm not a holier-than-thou person and won't throw around scripture about this subject but common sense should prevail here and if it is lacking, like I said above, the Pastor or Deacons should be involved.
A friend of mine attended a church where there was a service for girls as a special day and modesty is one of the subjects they covered. They lovingly teased that no "hills and valleys" should be shown (cleavage) and that shirts should "stay in place when you go to praise" (meaning there were no cropped shirts allowed)
I don't find that unreasonable or prudish. I find it respectful both of their own person and those around them.
I also don't find morals or ethics to be solely a "Christian" issue.
But again, if you're looking for a solution, talk to the pastor/deacons/elders of the church and ask for an appropriate and respectful way to bring the situation to light.
Lydia,
Thanks for a very thought provoking article.
While I generally find modest dress more attractive than more modern, unnecessarily revealing dress, I have to say that the angst and guilt that seem so often to go with it strike me as sadly unhealthy.
It seems to me that modesty is worth discussing and certainly a very valid mode of expression, but should be a very personal decision, made for ones own reasons and only for oneself and one's very young children.
I think what bothers me so much about this post is not what you're saying (you disagree with Jocelyn's stance and that's okay...I am a friend of hers and I don't agree with every single point she makes either), but the way that you're saying it makes you seem like...well...a bully.
"Yikes! I got the modesty people super mad at me. http://www.littleblueschool.com Apparently I have a lot of "gaul." Hehehe."
Why are comments like that necessary? Aren't we, as Christians, asked to speak to each other with love? We may not agree, but we are sisters in Christ and making fun of each other or taking delight in upsetting women of God is really not the road we should be walking. That whole, "you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" still holds true, IMHO...and for that matter so does the Golden Rule.
I don't think your post would be half as polarizing if you had approached this issue in a way that is a bit more kind.
1)The creation of an open-to-everyone blog makes it's creator part of the public. If the young modesty maven, Joscelyn, and her family/friends don't want her ideas to receive public scrutiny and comment, they should restrict access to her blog. That way only people who agree with her will see what she writes and she'll get all flattering feedback.
2) Harper isn't a public figure. She hasn't turned her clothing choices into a campaign. In no way does she proselytize for her point of view. That's why it would be unfair to identify her. Joscelyn put her own name in the public venue of her blog. Harper didn't do anything like that. So it's reasonable to give Harper a name designed to protect her privacy.
3)When Joscelyn turned her personal choices into a guide for the conduct of others, this girl exposed herself to expression of contrasting viewpoints.
This is what happens when someone sets him/herself up as a standard. The marketplace of ideas is a rough place for kids. They're likely to get their feelings hurt.
Moral: Don't run yourself up the flagpole if you're gonna cry when some won't salute.
2)I'll bet that at these mentioned places where young girls attend special services, get tips on how to live, there's a handbook where you'd find the following tip..."Right after a nice southern girl says something ugly, she should add, 'I mean that in love.'."
I mean this in love.
First of all I’d like to “commend” you on ridiculing a young lady on her Christian Values. I just wonder how you would feel as a mother knowing that someone “verbally attacked” YOUR child and her beliefs, and what you’ve helped to instill in her. I wanted to say that 11 months ago my husband of 33 years was taken away from me and my children when he was killed by a drunk driver. At the time I did NOT know Jocelyn or her family, but when they heard about my husband being killed they began corresponding with me and my girls through our homeschool blog. . Six weeks after my husband was killed Jocelyn and her family traveled all the way from Indiana to Alabama just to meet me and my girls and to be with us. They have become some of our dearest friends and for you to have attacked her was uncalled for. You have chosen NOT to offend a young girl in your church who is causing the men in your church to sin each time she attends. Yes, she may be doing all of the “wonderful” things that is wonderful in “your” eyes, but she is causing men to sin in God’s Eyes. You made a comment about a picture of Christ on Jocelyn’s blog as being violent. Did you take a look at the picture on your blog honey?
I’m going to respond on a few of “YOUR OWN” comments from your entry that you made.
She has also written a modesty checklist, which she instructs other girls to print out and hang by their mirrors. Maybe you should give your “favorite parishioner” a copy of Jocelyn’s modesty checklist in a pretty decorated envelope with a lovely little note in it, telling her how wonderful you think she is and how much you admire all that she does for the ministry and the people of your church and that you just wanted to share with her this little “gem” of a list.
But I would rather cut out my tongue than tell her she's out of line in any way. I can’t believe that you would rather cut out your tongue NOT to offend this girl for causing men to sin, BUT you can use that very tongue to offend a young lady who is making a stand for God and His Word. Just go and get a knife cause you may not have cut out your tongue, but you have cut out the heart of a Godly young lady, who strives each morning to wake up and to do God’s Will.
Jocelyn believes that she is called to admonish her sisters in Christ, and that what others might see as judgmental she feels is necessary.
Maybe if more people felt like Jocelyn, you wouldn’t have had to write about your “favorite parishioner” and her “shockingly inappropriate clothing.”
My first reaction was that Jocelyn was just another obsessed teenager.
I thank God that Jocelyn is obsessed with Godliness and NOT “shockingly inappropriate clothing”
So, as long as her parents don't take her too seriously, and she doesn't make any decisions she can't take back when she grows up, where's the harm? Just so you know, Jocelyn’s parents take her VERY serious, and so do ALL of her friends who truly know her.
Yeah, it's all a little crazy
Thank God that Jocelyn is crazy for Jesus living her life to the fullest for Him. I can honestly say that on the day that Jocelyn stands before her God. His Words that He’ll say to her will be, WELL DONE, My Good and Faithful Servant.
She'll grow out of it, etc.
All of us who know and love Jocelyn are praying that she’ll NEVER out grow her convictions. Maybe someone needs to teach your “favorite parishioner” a few convictions where dressing is concerned.
How ridiculous it would be to tell her she's "encouraging lust" or to tell her that her actions are not "pleasing to God" because of the cut of her skirt.
OH NO, PLEASE DON’T TELL “YOUR FAVORITE PARIHIONER” THAT SHE’S “ENCOURAGING LUST.” God forbid that you would offend her by helping her to stop causing others to sin. I can NOT believe that you would chose to offend Jocelyn who is trying to help others NOT to sin, but you would not consider helping this young lady who IS causing others to sin.
Jocelyn always uses scripture to “back up” what she says. What scriptures did you use???
Why did you chose to protect the identity of your “favorite parishioner” and slashed the name of the one trying to do good with her life and her blog?
All I can say is……SHAME ON YOU FOR ATTACKING JOCELYN WHO IS DOING EVERYTHING MORALLY RIGHT IN GOD’S EYES, BUT YOU WILL CONTINUTE TO HELP THIS YOUNG LADY IN YOUR CHURCH TO CONTINUE TO SIN. I THINK YOUR MORALS NEED SOME WORK. YOU ALSO NEED TO SEND JOCELYN AN APPOLOGY FOR ATTACKING HER AND WHAT GOD SEES AS PLEASING IN HIS SITE.
Josephine
Widow to Elgin, Mom to 5 children and Grandmaw to 9 grandchildren
You yourself said that Jocelyn is "just another obsessed teenager." And you are right... she is obessed with her LORD and Savior JESUS CHRIST! She is doing what the LORD has called her to be doing.
I am really sad to see that you are a homeschool graduate and Christian, because by belittling Jocelyn, you are giving HSing and Christianity bad names.
Anonymous poster @11:54, I'm very sorry for your loss. I get your rage, but don't you kind of have to appreciate the fact that I don't edit/delete/censor your comments? I also won't require you to apologize for disagreeing with me. It's okay to be mad, impugn my morals, and even shout. You're welcome to say whatever you like, bring whoever you like here to also shout at me, and post anonymously if that's how you roll. :) Sincerely, welcome to the conversation.
Pursuant to my last comment, those unfamiliar might want to take a peek at the rules of engagement here: http://aponderingheart.com/blog/?p=314
This post has been removed by the author.
So what you are saying here is that you'd rather offend a girl following God and not stumbling others but you won't tell "Harper" about her dress issues which does stumble men? Very backwards.
And all of us homeschoolers are not like you.
PJS
Ladies - all Christians do not agree on what is appropriate women's attire...and yet all of us, I'm sure, can find scripture verses to use in order to support our particular doctrines, beliefs and personal preferences...and at times very badly! And just a reminder, it's never a good idea to assume that someone who attends church and quotes the bible is a Christian. :)
Lydia,
It's a lot to take in.........and certainly balance in our culture is a hard thing to find sometimes. But I think you make some really, really good points. God is concerned with our hearts. And we must protect our daughters from worrying about their bodies. They must never be blamed or accused of causing another to think or act in a certain way.
I find it surprising and a bit baffling how people quote the "men are such visual creatures" stuff. Umm........I have eyes that work very well, thank you and can imagine, think, lust just as well as a man, I believe!
Do we have a young man blogging to wear baggy pants, never remove your shirt, don't work those abs and biceps to attract the girls! No, of course not!
If we put our attention on developing and forming the hearts and minds and intentions of ourselves and our young people, the rest of this becomes obsolete.
I have three sons and three daughters. I want them all to have healthy body images and a healthy appreciation for others' bodies. God did give us these amazing bodies to care for, nurture, develop, dance in, work out, and maybe even show off occasionally!
Legislating what is "godly" or "christian" gets you into a whole messy situation because who gets to define, and when?
And I just have to laugh at the poster who said she didn't want her sons exposed to girls dressed scantily at church.........do you think they're not seeing it elsewhere? Making it taboo really only makes it more attractive.........
And yeah, I give some feedback on my kids' clothing regularly. And my oldest daughter is a ballet dancer - viewers see every curve of these girls, if that's what they're looking for - but I think what most of us see is beauty and grace and youth and innocence. It's in the eye of the beholder.....
Priscilla, why did you decide to remove your first post and go anonymous? I really would like to know.
Kim, your reminder to the ladies there is a real zinger! Wow! Ouch! It reminds *me* of your earlier comment: "Judgment is presuming to know the heart, mind and motivation of another human being...and that is to be dealt with and known only to God and the person involved." :)
Katherine, your point about an analagous blog coming from a male perspective is very good! I hadn't thought about it that way. That would be pretty hilarious! Hehehe. I also like this quote from you: "If we put our attention on developing and forming the hearts and minds and intentions of ourselves and our young people, the rest of this becomes obsolete."
Lydia-I tried reading the comments but my skin started crawling after a while. In this country, at this moment, we are free to choose our religion. There are a LOT of people who clothe themselves in Christian regalia but are actually nothing more than judgmental, hateful bitches posturing for social status in what is no more than a very large religious community where people can rarely be Christian Enough.
You were kind in your post. In particular, you had the balls to be kind to someone who is on the shitty end of the Christian judgment spectrum and now you've been slammed by the mean girl's club. Apparently you can cover yourself from ankles to elbows and be not modest enough, however being mean and spewing spite is complete perfection in certain CHRISTIAN circles. No wonder so many of us have turned our backs.
I know I’m a few months late here, but I got to this blog drawn by the very interesting-looking freebie about novel writing. Thanks for sharing this, Cheerio!
I don’t mean to hurt anyone here, but I have a question and a thought I’d like to add: if you weren’t a Christian, and you were searching for the truth, and knew next to nothing about Jesus, Christianity, and Christians (Jesus’ followers, right?) and you read this “conversation”, so to speak, what impression of Christianity would you come away with?
I think if it were I, I might be pretty confused, and come away thinking two main things: 1) Outward appearance is a very important aspect of Christian life; and 2) Not only do Christians not agree on it, but some of them can get rather petty and sometimes even judgmental in their communication about it. Maybe that’s the way they are about other things, too.
As Christians, we’re Jesus’ face to the world. Is this the face He wants us to show the world? Is it the one we want to show? Will it win the lost to Jesus and eternal life?
And what about our kids? Do we want them to be intolerant, judgmental, critical of other people? Or do we want them to be walking examples of the love of Jesus?
I think we would all do well to read Romans 14--not to see what we can find to support our point of view regarding outward appearance and modesty, and “how Jesus would dress” (by the way, I suspect that Jesus would dress according to the custom of whatever country He were visiting—after all, He came to earth from the halls of Heaven as a little baby, after our fashion), but to apply it to our ways of looking at one another.
I'm just wondering why my comment shows up as the last one on this post a comment page, but it doesn't show up on the blog itself. Is it because I posted so belatedly?
Anonymous, I don't know. It's hard to tell whose anonymous post is whose. Which did you write?
50 comments is about the most this blog has ever gotten, so the blog might be getting flustered, freaking out and losing things -- not sure. :)
Thanks, Lostcheerio, for the quick answer to my query "I'm just wondering why my comment...". When that question, along with your reply, went up, my original post that I was asking about did, too. It's from Tricia. (That's me, but I'm a bit new at responding to blogs, and don't have a google account, and couldn't figure out the second time how I'd done it the first time to be able to put my name! I know, sounds dumb.
Anyway, this isn't for posting, just to answer your question about mine, ha! God bless you!